Atheism and agnosticism, to clear up some confusion

[lamuella]

This was mentioned in another thread, so I thought I should quickly clear it up.

Atheism is not (or doesn't have to be) the belief that no gods exist.

Additionally, there is no scale from theism to agnosticism to atheism.  Atheism and agnosticism are two different questions.

A theist is someone who would answer the question "Do you believe in any gods" by saying "yes"
An atheist is someone who would answer the question "Do you believe in any gods" by saying "no"

A gnostic is someone who would answer the question "do you know for a fact whether gods exist" by saying "yes"
An agnostic is someone who would answer the question "do you know for a fact whether gods exist" by saying "no"

It's possible to have christian agnostics and atheist agnostics.  A christian agnostic would be someone who doesn't know for a fact that there is a god but believes in one anyway.

Some atheists go further than not believing in any gods and would actively say they believe that there are no gods.  Not all atheists do, though, nor is such a position required to be an atheist.

Sorry this was a long rant.  Thanks, all.

[Rory Pond]

This was mentioned in another thread, so I thought I should quickly clear it up.

Atheism is not (or doesn't have to be) the belief that no gods exist.

Additionally, there is no scale from theism to agnosticism to atheism.  Atheism and agnosticism are two different questions.

A theist is someone who would answer the question "Do you believe in any gods" by saying "yes"
An atheist is someone who would answer the question "Do you believe in any gods" by saying "no"

A gnostic is someone who would answer the question "do you know for a fact whether gods exist" by saying "yes"
An agnostic is someone who would answer the question "do you know for a fact whether gods exist" by saying "no"

It's possible to have christian agnostics and atheist agnostics.  A christian agnostic would be someone who doesn't know for a fact that there is a god but believes in one anyway.

Some atheists go further than not believing in any gods and would actively say they believe that there are no gods.  Not all atheists do, though, nor is such a position required to be an atheist.

Sorry this was a long rant.  Thanks, all.

Whether it's accepted as a textbook definition or not, I think most people who believe in some form of religion would posit that atheism is still an expression of faith. Atheists believe there is no god. Faith is defined as belief in something where no proof exists. You can't prove or disprove the existence of a higher power.

I'm not taking exception to anyone else's definition of atheism, just providing my own. You're welcome to agree or disagree as you see fit. 

[Ian]

We're into angels on a head of a pin here.

As Rory says, it's impossible to empircally disprove the exitence of a God. If we were created, they also created our entire frame of reference, what we call 'logic' and anything we could possibly use as evidence, they can therefore make it appear any way that suits them.

But it goes deeper than that anyway, pretty much every fact we accept as 'knowledge' is in some way an act of faith. I beleive in evolution, Einsteins theory of relativity and Stephen Moffat, but I haven't witnessed or proven any of these myself, I have simply listened to other people and I have faith that they know what they are talking about.

[James (DWP)]

I have simply listened to other people and I have faith that they know what they are talking about.

Faith is a dangerous thing, as we saw in this week's episode......;-)

[lamuella]

Atheists believe there is no god.

As I said above, this is not true, or at least not true of all atheists and not a requirement to be an atheist.  I am an atheist and I do not hold this belief.  I haven't seen anything to persuade me that there is a god, and I certainly don't believe in one, but I wouldn't say that I believe there is no god.  I accept the possibility of their existence but until I see proof I will continue to act as if they are not there.

[Rory Pond]

Atheists believe there is no god.

As I said above, this is not true, or at least not true of all atheists and not a requirement to be an atheist.  I am an atheist and I do not hold this belief.  I haven't seen anything to persuade me that there is a god, and I certainly don't believe in one, but I wouldn't say that I believe there is no god.  I accept the possibility of their existence but until I see proof I will continue to act as if they are not there.

It sounds like you believe in splitting hairs. 

[James (DWP)]

Can't believe I'm getting drawn into this, but hey ho.  My definition of an athiest is someone who firmly believes that an all powerful deity does not exist.  Someone who is open to the idea but just not certain is an agnostic.  A devout dedication to agnosticism represents a firmly held view that it is not possible to know if a god exists.

[Ian]

From the Colins online dictionary (OED needs a sub, sorry).

Atheist
n
 
The belief that there is no God,
Greek a- without + theos god

Agnostic

N

A person who believes that it is impossible to know whether God exists,

Faith
n
 
1. strong belief in something, esp. without proof,

2. a specific system of religious beliefs,

FWIW, I think atheism is more a position of 'faith' than agnostisism. As agnostic, you are acknowledging that you simply don't know and anything might be true. But as an atheist you are positively beleiving in a position that you cannot empirically prove, which sounds far more like faith to me, if you take the first definition of faith above rather than the second.

As it happens, from a philosophical perspective I am agnostic, the universe is a vast and complex thing which as a species we have only just started to understand. I am not in a position to rule anything in or out as being possible from my extrodinarily limited perspective. To take a similar idea, science tells us that faster than light travel is impossible, but does that mean it will never be discovered? Who knows? It was once said that humans would die if they travelled faster than 30mph and I'm sure those people were convinced they were right at the time. To plagiarise Scott Adam, what are the chances that we happened to be born in the age where science suddenly got everything right?, after thousands of years of thinking they had it right but it actually turning out to be more complex than they thought.

However, from a practical day to day perspective I am essentially atheist as I don't believe there to be a God watching over me, but that is a matter of belief, I can't prove it and I know I can't.

[lamuella]

Atheists believe there is no god.

As I said above, this is not true, or at least not true of all atheists and not a requirement to be an atheist.  I am an atheist and I do not hold this belief.  I haven't seen anything to persuade me that there is a god, and I certainly don't believe in one, but I wouldn't say that I believe there is no god.  I accept the possibility of their existence but until I see proof I will continue to act as if they are not there.

It sounds like you believe in splitting hairs. 

It sounds like you're trying to define what my beliefs are, and I'm not sure if I should be offended by that.

[Ian]

It sounds like you believe in splitting hairs. 

It sounds like you're trying to define what my beliefs are, and I'm not sure if I should be offended by that.

I would advise against being offended, it's no fun on a Monday morning

Nobody is disputuing your beliefs, you are free to believe what you want. However, I think we disagree with the definitions of certain words that you are using to describe those beliefs, which is a different thing. From what you described, you sound agnostic to me and the dictionary definition quoted above would seem to agree with that.

But in no way am I challenging you beliefs, we're just talking semantics.

[BreathingMeat]

But in no way am I challenging you beliefs, we're just talking semantics.

I think that's what's important here. People know what they believe and what they don't believe, and it's unlikely that Internet freaks from a Dr Who forum are likely to change that for anyone. All we're deciding here is what various words mean.

TPO's definitions are the ones I like to use, as they agree with other dictionaries I have encountered, and with Wikipedia (at time of writing).

In response to a question "Is there a god?":
A theist will say: "Yes, there sure is."
An atheist will say: "No, absolutely not."
An agnostic will say "I don't know."

Clearly there are positions in between these absolute answers. But I think it's important to use the right word for the right thing.

[Rory Pond]

It sounds like you believe in splitting hairs. 

It sounds like you're trying to define what my beliefs are, and I'm not sure if I should be offended by that.

To be fair to both of us, you took one line from my post and singled it out, completely overlooking this part:

I'm not taking exception to anyone else's definition of atheism, just providing my own. You're welcome to agree or disagree as you see fit.   

So there's no reason for you to take offense, if you read the totality of that post. I don't care how you define your belief system/non-belief system/whatever you wish to call it. That's entirely your business. By that same token, you don't get to tell me what atheism means in my belief system. Fair enough?

[James (DWP)]

I think's that enough of  that thank you!  If you want definitions of words then I suggest you look in a dictionary. If you want to continue the conversation in what I think are overly assertive tones then please use the instant messaging system - otherwise cool it down here or I'll no option other than to lock it.

[BreathingMeat]

Ahh, religion, politics and dirty jokes. Doctor Who seems to specialise in topics that quickly lead to moderators using that red typeface...   

[Michele]

Ahh, religion, politics and dirty jokes. Doctor Who seems to specialise in topics that quickly lead to moderators using that red typeface...   

You know, BreathingMeat makes a point I've been contemplating for awhile. As soon as I watched The God Complex I thought, "Well, that'll get the hot topic section up and running." Who'd have thought, a few years ago,  we'd be watching a version Doctor who that repeatedly delves into themes that could be considered "hot topics." Not entirely sure how I feel about that in the context of the show -- though perhaps it's always been that way to an extent. What I am sure of is it makes for some anxious moderator moments...